Topic of the Week - 03/13/07 - What About Hybrids?

[Messiah]

There has been a lot of discussion recently about the use and role of hybrid classes in the World of Warcraft. With the last several patches many little things have changed with the classes and rumor has it that more changes are on the way. There have been rampant calls of "Nerfed" or "Stealth Nerfed" and more.

I want to take a step back from all the derogatory comments going on around the net though and have a serious look at what a Hybrid class is really meant to be. Should a hybrid class always play second fiddle in any role, or should it be able to be just as good as the primary class it is copying? What are the pro's and con's of each way of looking at the hybrid classes?

You can read the whole article here, and then make your own decision and post your comments here in this thread.

[sagaciousman]

I didn't read your article before posting but I'll do so after. I'm a no. Druids, Shaman, and Paladins are support classes. They were designed and intended that way and are described that way in all the blizzard precis and game write-ups.
Support classes help the group. They fill in the gaps, can heal if the healer dies, can tank if the tank dies, other than that they augment the abilities of the main role toons (tank, healers, dps) and add in their own contribution of damage.
Hybrids are Jack of all Trades (master of none). And they should not be the master of any role, that does dilute the experience of playing them and brings imbalance to the game.
Should a Prot-specced pally or feral-tank druid be a better instance tank than a 41 pt arms or fury warrior - absolutely. Should they be as good as a prot-spec warrior - hell no. Should a resto druid or a holy pally be able to heal an instance solo - yes. Should they be better at it than a priest and bring better healing characteristics to a group than a holy/disc priest - no.

My standard response to this topic is that if you don't like not being as good at <insert party role here> as others then don't roll a support class.

On top of all this is the skill of the player at the keyboard. A good player in control of a hybrid will always be preferable to an idiot tanking/healing.

[Maegwynn]

If you're considering a Shadow Priest as a hybrid, why not an Arms/Fury warrior also? They can DPS/Tank like a Shadow Priest can DPS/Heal.

[Mikes]

I'm with Meagwynn, if priests are hybrids, then so are warriors. According to my main's Armoury page I'm actually a hybrid.

As for the poll: I don't think hybids should be as powerful in a single role as they have the choice, not matter how they're specced, to have another role.

If you're a prot-specced warrior, you're a tank, pure and simple, and no duel wielding is going to fool anyone into thinking you could dps.

But if you're a pally, you can always heal and buff, even if it is at a lower standard, even if you're not specced in it.

As an example, my druid's resto specced, but at a pinch in BGs i can drop into bear form and tie up enemies until back up arrives. Does that mean i should be as durable as a tank warrior?

[aubade]

No.


First let me qualify myself ... My main is a druid...the only toon I have leveled to 70. I thought long and hard about my character choice before I rolled my main...I even read all of the lore I could about the class. I decided this was me in game... able to do many things. With that I think I am qualified to say No they should not be able to do anything as well as the primary class. However I do think that those who spec primarily in one tree on a hybrid class should be closer than 80% as good..more like 95% as good....for example a druid speced all and I mean all in restoration should be able to heal nearly as well as a priest speced as a heal priest and definitely be able to heal better than a shadow priest...same goes for any other spec class combo. I myself am a balance spec druid and often times am just behind fire mages in dps...but in bear form with my feral armor set still cannot come close to matching a warrior as a tank...not even a dps warrior.... reason being, I have absolutely no points in the feral tree.... I can off tank for a bit but that is usually a sacrifice so the tank can be healed and I usually die.
A good player can do very well as a hybrid. part of the allure for me was that in order to do anything well as a druid it would be a bit harder...now I am not saying that it is a cake walk to play a non-hybrid class just that you don't have to make play style adjustments on the fly.... I like being able to tank, dps heal, and sneak around as scout or kill that fire mage before he sees me if I wanted to be as good as a warrior at tanking I would have rolled one.

[Ohm]

I said Yes. I like the fact there are hybrid classes. Even though I only play a priest. I don't think as many people would be playing WoW if we only had the stock classes like tank, healer, mage, DD, DD, and puller.

With the talent tree can't any class be a hybrid? Why does any one single class have to fit a mold? I understand if you want a tank you don't want a certain type warrior. But that warrior could be a DD if for example a rogue could not be found.

From what little I understand some people will not even include you in certain groups if you are not "Spec" the right way. If you let people know up front (of if blizzard could build it into LFG or LFM) what you are spec'ed as this could help. You can be a druid all day long as a healer but I am sure that person didn't pick a druid as a "main" healer only. Now if are asked to join a group as the main healer do not expect to do anything else but heal. But if it is made clear up front "I am not main healer" I don't see a big problem as long as the group finds or has another healer.

As always it is a game and if you are not in some uber hard core guild doing RAIDS day in and day out does it really matter? Most people play the game how they want to play it anyways.

[SaraS]

I like hybrids for lots of reasons, not just the fact that I play a druid. The article touched on one of them -- you really do need multiple classes available to fill the needed roles or looking for groups will become pretty unpleasant. I don't think any one class should have a monopoly on a role. Multiple potential tanks, healers, and dps'rs makes the game more interesting.

That said, I guess I come down on the side that hybrids shouldn't be as good as the "single-role" classes, but they should be darn close IF they spec for it. If a hybrid goes all the way down a talent tree for the 41 point talent, they ARE giving up some of their versitility for more power in a particular role. A full feral druid SHOULD be able to tank well enough to be a viable choice of tank in a dungeon or raid. Would I choose the druid if I had a full prot warrior available? Probably not. I'd bring the druid for off-tanking and backup healing, though.

One of my most fun moments as a druid was when I was grouping with a friend, we got too many harpies on us in the charred vale and I was trying to tank them in bear form, but a few were still hitting my friend. I managed to shift out of bear form, heal myself, heal her (she was nearly dead), shift back, get the mobs back on me, and finish them off. The timing worked out beautifully and we survived. Of course, the next time I tried the same thing, I couldn't pull it off and we both died.

Another fun moment just last night in WSG -- we had 2 flag captures, the flag carrier for the third was a bit more than halfway to our base, where I had been doing defense. I saw he was getting low on life and started running over there with the intention to heal him up so that he could finish the run. Didn't make it in time, and he died, but I was able to snatch up the flag, shift into cat (which has a speed bonus due to the feral swiftness talent) and dash all the way into our base and score the flag.

I guess my point with that is, that is exactly how I WANT to play my hybrid. I don't want to be a main tank or main healer unless we just can't find anyone else. Warriors and priests, your jobs are safe from me! I want to jump in and save the day by being able to what is needed at the time we need it, whether that be DPS, tanking, or healing. Mobs going for the healer in an instance? I'll go into bear and off-tank them till the tank can get them back. Healer just died? I'll combat-rez if I can, or just fill in with the healing if the cooldown is up. You get the idea.

And I want to be able to look like a cool bear or cat with horns, too

[LordBeric]

I went with 'no.' I'll be honest, I'm probably a little biased, but somehow I feel like a warrior's shield and plate should just generally make him a better tank than a bear covered in FUR.

Realistically, though, I love having hybrids grouped with me, especially if they are willing and able to switch roles on the fly. Watching your priest go down and then having your DPSing druid pop into caster form and save your dying ass is a great feeling. On the other hand, those hybrids who only choose to
(or only know how to) play their character one way can really ruin a group dynamic. For instance, the druid or pally who refuses to heal because "I don't enjoy it," or the pally who keeps thinking he can pull just because he's running ahead while everyone else mana's up; these people give hybrids a bad name. (On the other, OTHER, hand, I love shamans, they make everyone's job easier.)

[mattchiavelli]

such a tricky topic! I voted NO even though hybrids are my favorite class types to play. I tried out more focused classes and I found them really boring. Personally, I think the only "pure" classes would be rogue and mage because they cannot at all do anything but their DPS (melee or magic). They both have some tricks that make a party run easier but for the most part that is all they do.


Something no one has brought up RE: hybrids is equipment. Hybrids can gear up to be versatile focusing on STR, AGI, STA, and INT (while pure-er classes have to really focus on about 2 stats) and be ineffective at everything at once, or they can focus on a few stats (maybe INT and + heal for a resto Shaman) while sacrificing effectiveness in other areas (you can't have as much +spell damage, STR, etc gear). In lower levels it is easier to get multiple gear sets but as each piece of gear starts to become a many hour investment, it's not as feasable to have stuff that is going to give you maximum benefits to everything. It is a little easier to multi cast (magic DPS and heal) than to be a caster and melee because some stats like INT, +damage and healing, and certain talents llike clearcasting or +mana benefit all casting in general.

Of course, even if someone is a feral druid totally specced and geared for that role they can always shift out and throw a heal, it just eats up a bigger chunk of their available mana pool. I think one of the bigger problems is one can see three hybrids do some incredible stuff geared and specced for three different things and then say "wow, this class is a powerhouse" - but if you told each of them to switch roles without changing gear or reallocating talent points the hybrids will be a lot less impressive. This is the very cool thing about hybrids that I love- they work better when stuff gets tricky and more rigid classes are better when everything is in control and running smoothly.

So basically, the flexibility of the character should limit the hybrids to never being just as good as a more rigid class, but as that player sacrifices their flexibility they should be rewarded with more power in their chosen area. There should also be a point where PLAYER SKILL comes in to account- if you are a crappy mage and you keep getting outdamaged by a very talented shaman that isn't even specced for that, maybe you just suck.

[Zeep]

There seems to be a consensus. I have a level 16 paladin and level 20 druid as alts, and with both I like being able to shift roles to fit the situation. I'm really enjoying the druid these days. I like the Charred Vale story above, and have done the same sort of switching around with my wife as needed. My main characters are pure casters, so it's a really different frame of mind, trying to be ready to be in one form to heal or cast, or another to hold agro while my wife's character kills a mob, or yet another to do the quick slicing and dicing myself. But it's fun. Will see if I have the presence of mind for emergency role-switching when we go beyond being a duo to trying Deadmines soon.

Partly, I like the challenge. Partly, I like the variety. Partly the different druid forms just amuse me. Seems like we all agree none of those roles should be quite as strong as for a non-hybrid class but that if you throw all your talent points into one role that it still ought to be a pretty strong role.