Hybrids are the rage now in World of Warcraft, but what does it mean for dedicated DPS classes like the Mage? Resident writer, David "Xerin" Piner, goes into the heated debate about hybrids vs. dedicated in his latest editorial about the hybrid monopoly. Do you have an opinion on this subject? Come on down to our forums and join our community on this hot debate.
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Here’s a(n) (un)funny joke. What does a Mage do when they dual spec? Waste 1,000 gold.
Is this an argument about viability or an argument of wants? It’s true that right now Mages are brought to raids. Their DPS is consistent to their role as DPS only. It’s not bad, they’re not useless, and for right now, they’re “fine.”
While I expect to get raving reviews and literal flames on this argument I would like to interject the following: post your real honest to god opinions. It's not going to change things, but sharing what you feel on the subject which could be apathy, moral outrage, or total agreement with some side either presented or not is a good way of expression.
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No link yet - although I am sure it is coming. I know hybrids are all the range and of the three druids and paladins especially (I think shamans are still a tier down). But looking at my guild's WoWWebStats each night after a raid it is usually a warlock, rogue, or mage in the top spot. On occasion our resident kitty druid is but across the board the "pure DPS" classes are still tops - as they should be. Being a hybrid is great but you should be a little behind the pure classes - your flexibility comes at a little bit of a cost. Blizzard has said this much many a time.
They've intentional "broken" that rule when it comes to healers and tanks because 9 times out of 10 when you are looking for a 5-man tanks and healers are the hardest to find - I tend to do a double take when I see people asking for DPS in general chat.
I don't think there really is a debate necessarily - Blizzard has said that hybrid DPS is on a level a tad bit below the pure DPS classes. The buffs that they bring should come at a cost or else you're right - why play a hunter, warlock, mage or rogue?
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They are a little bit behind, but a good feral druid or enhance shaman can easily hit top of the DPS meters if they're good and geared properly. Also DPS meters can lie if all of the players are on a new equal skill level since it's more of a gear meter or buff/debuff love meter.
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I dono. I have no real gripe about hybrids being good at everything, I think it is better then having completely wasted talent trees.
That being said, my main is a Lock. I spend a good bit of time lfg when I want to do heroics, and all the time I see 3 or 4 man groups that need tank/heals. I am a damn good DPS (for some one that has never been in a raid), and regularly am 1 or 2 in DPS and damage done for heroics. However with the current way most fights go it is the tank/healer that is really shining. True, a number of the current raid encounters require good DPS due to their timed nature, but that always felt forced to me.
So, what am I doing?
Rolling a druid. (I wana be a damn tree!)
I hope they continue to work on making all talent trees equally viable, as that was something I always thought was silly. However I hope that we never see a day when a hybrid is more desirable simply because they are a hybrid.
I don't look at damage or healing meters much, but when I do, in our raids, the top folks tend to be the best players. They can switch classes and still be top dps, whether they're playing a lock, a DK, a hunter, a ret paladin. They're just good.
But yes, buff up the hybrids and throw in dual specs, and at least in theory you need fewer raiders as people switch roles.
My main character is a priest and my main alt is a mage. In TBC I raided a bit with a hunter. For raiding purposes, I'm happy.
For questing purposes, why be a rogue if you can be a ret paladin and demolish everything in your path while taking no damage? Or why be a mage if you can be a hunter and do the same, pretty much? Dunno, but people do, always have, and I still have fun playing my mage. I guess I wouldn't worry too much until the percentage of classes gets skewed.
I've always thought the debate on hybrids was a bit overblown. Hybrids offer two useful benefits: ability to fulfill multiple roles in a group and allow a player to switch playstyles without leveling an alt. Many players take advantage of neither. For every Paladin that has played as all 3 specs there are plenty more who have never strayed from the Retribution tree. I know plenty of warriors and DKs that don't own a single piece of gear with defense on it. Many DPS classes with healing trees actually hate their hybrid status. Guess who gets asked to respec if the raid is short a healer? Hint: it's not the mage or hunter.
One of the more ridiculous arguments I've heard offered is there is no reason to take pure DPS if hybrids can do the same damage. That argument might have some merit if there were 10-man encounters that required 4 tanks or 5 healers. But every encounter in Ulduar requires no more than 1-2 tanks and 2-3 healers. That leaves room for 5 DPS, pure or hybrid. Does it help to have a hybrid for that 2nd tank role and 3rd healing spot? Sure! But it doesn't rob a pure DPS of a role. If you need a 2nd tank, you need a 2nd tank. Whether he's a hybrid or not is a moot point.
Should pure DPS be worried about their spot in a raid when there are so many hybrids running around? Maybe if they are the 6th DPS in a 10-man raid. Otherwise, no.
In all honesty this problem will continue to persist. It’ll always persist. There are things that can be done to make things better though. More gimmick encounters like ones that need Warlock tanks or ranged DPS to do something; more utility as the game advances for pure DPS classes that are needed to get to that next level so you can debuff more or crowd control more. More “good things,” essentially.
That's the last thing we need. "Bring the player, not the class" has already been shown to be empty words, gimmick encounters requiring the likes of tanking Warlocks would make it even more so.
One of the more ridiculous arguments I've heard offered is there is no reason to take pure DPS if hybrids can do the same damage. That argument might have some merit if there were 10-man encounters that required 4 tanks or 5 healers. But every encounter in Ulduar requires no more than 1-2 tanks and 2-3 healers. That leaves room for 5 DPS, pure or hybrid. Does it help to have a hybrid for that 2nd tank role and 3rd healing spot? Sure! But it doesn't rob a pure DPS of a role. If you need a 2nd tank, you need a 2nd tank. Whether he's a hybrid or not is a moot point.
Should pure DPS be worried about their spot in a raid when there are so many hybrids running around? Maybe if they are the 6th DPS in a 10-man raid. Otherwise, no.
Exactly. I have had several conversations with mages and rogues, both in-game and in forums, that whine about losing a spot to a hybrid. I try to explain to them that if a 2nd tank or 3rd healer is needed, that is the class that would go regardless. And, they still wouldn't get to go, whether it was a pure class or hybrid.
When I first started playing wow, it was in TBC. Thankfully (since my druid is my main and my favorite overall character), I did not have to go through the "you are tree, accept it" situation. However, when I joined my guild, it was during a rebuilding period. When we were able to venture back into BT, I got to see every bit of trash between each boss. But I never got to see the boss fight, as I was subbed out for a "pure" dps class. Reason being, the raid leaders didn't think they could carry the two OT's lower dps during the boss fights. Once the "pure" classes obtained more gear, it was no longer necessary to sub out the two OT's. It was very dis-heartening to have to go through that. IMO, if trash between bosses requires more than one tank, the OT's should not "need" to be replaced because they are a liabilty. I have no problem with a hybrid being just under a pure class for whatever the situation, be it healing, tanking, or dps. Then again, all four tanking classes have become hybridized, as they can all do dps just below the pure classes.
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Alex: My grandma drank all my pot.
Jeff: That's awesome.
Alex: What?
Jeff: I mean, how many people can say that in a lifetime?
Exactly. I have had several conversations with mages and rogues, both in-game and in forums, that whine about losing a spot to a hybrid. I try to explain to them that if a 2nd tank or 3rd healer is needed, that is the class that would go regardless. And, they still wouldn't get to go, whether it was a pure class or hybrid.
When I first started playing wow, it was in TBC. Thankfully (since my druid is my main and my favorite overall character), I did not have to go through the "you are tree, accept it" situation. However, when I joined my guild, it was during a rebuilding period. When we were able to venture back into BT, I got to see every bit of trash between each boss. But I never got to see the boss fight, as I was subbed out for a "pure" dps class. Reason being, the raid leaders didn't think they could carry the two OT's lower dps during the boss fights. Once the "pure" classes obtained more gear, it was no longer necessary to sub out the two OT's. It was very dis-heartening to have to go through that. IMO, if trash between bosses requires more than one tank, the OT's should not "need" to be replaced because they are a liabilty. I have no problem with a hybrid being just under a pure class for whatever the situation, be it healing, tanking, or dps. Then again, all four tanking classes have become hybridized, as they can all do dps just below the pure classes.
Your anecdote isn't quite fair. You were going through the raid as OT for trash? But the raid boss encounters didn't need an OT? It isn't surprising that they switched you out, and yah, it sucks that blizz made raids like that (I never raided in that period), but that isn't hybrid vs pure, that is tank vs DPS. Bringing some one speced as tank when you need DPS is just silly. These days they still wouldn't have brought you to the boss when they needed DPS, but you could at least say "well, I am going to switch to boomkin/kitty spec for this fight", which is an advantage that you have that I (a lock) do not.
Your anecdote isn't quite fair. You were going through the raid as OT for trash? But the raid boss encounters didn't need an OT? It isn't surprising that they switched you out, and yah, it sucks that blizz made raids like that (I never raided in that period), but that isn't hybrid vs pure, that is tank vs DPS. Bringing some one speced as tank when you need DPS is just silly. These days they still wouldn't have brought you to the boss when they needed DPS, but you could at least say "well, I am going to switch to boomkin/kitty spec for this fight", which is an advantage that you have that I (a lock) do not.
Not quite fair? What is not fair about my anecdote? The fact that blizzard made an instance that required more than one tank between bosses, but did not make it viable for that OT to switch gear (and now spec) and put out almost as much dps as a pure dps class? Or the part that they brought a tank in a dps spot because the trash would have one shot a warlock's minion and then the warlock had the spot been filled with a pure dps instead of a tank? I never said raids should bring hybrids instead of pure dps classes for slots reserved for dps. What I was trying to convey, is the new love for hybrids has allowed us to contribute more to the raid than merely clearing trash for the pure classes (that don't have the advantage of filling another role other than dps). As I see it (and this is just my opinion, which I am entitled to as you are entitled to your own) my anecdote is a perfect example of how increased performance from hybrids (from all talent trees) and dual spec have made the game better for the rest of us "un-pure" classes. It has not however hurt the pure dps classes as grievously as they say. The only thing different is you can no longer ride on the coat-tails of trash clearers to get boss loot first. But if a 10 man requires 2 tanks at any point in the raid (maybe even 3), 2 or 3 healers and 5 dps, the only slots available for pure classes should be 5. It was unfair that an OT was used to clear to the boss and then kicked to the curb for the boss fight. It was also unfair (though not as unfair) to the pure dps that only comes in for the boss fights, gets loot, then gets kicked to the curb when it was time to clear more trash.
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Alex: My grandma drank all my pot.
Jeff: That's awesome.
Alex: What?
Jeff: I mean, how many people can say that in a lifetime?
The Emergence of the Hybrid Monopoly
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