In this three-page editorial, Ten Ton Hammer News Editor Cameron Sorden examines the impact of raiding on World of Warcraft and asks an interesting question: Would WoW serve its players better if it didn't have raids?
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WoW made such a splash in the industry for a number of complex reasons: great timing, unprecedented polish, an established IP, plenty of hype, and mass migrations of players, to name a few. One especially key thing that drove its success was that it was accessible to the solo and casual player. Anybody could jump in and make meaningful progress on their character while playing just a few hours each week. That's the thing that kept and still keeps many players involved in the game when they would have been turned off or burned out with the steep time and grouping requirements of many prior-generation MMOs.With WoW recently hitting the 9.3 million player mark, it's obvious to everyone that they're doing something right. But is raiding really part of that recipe for success, or is it something that's an unnecessary resource hog for the majority of the WoW population?
Read the editorial here, then share your opinions in this thread!
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Karen "Shayalyn" Hertzberg
Public Relations & Resident Forum Goddess (All your posts are belong to me!)
"I fell asleep watching Jeopardy, and I snored in the form of a question "
~ Christoper Moore
"Did you know that the Burning Crusade destroyed almost half as many zones (for the purposes of meaningful progression) as it brought into the game, and more than doubled the number of raiding instances that only 20% of WoW players even use?"
From my own experience with the game, the above quote tends to be a much larger issue than where raiding specifically fits into the grand scheme of things. Making such a vast amount of content obsolete as your means of trying to keep new content viable was a big mistake in my opinion.
I'm sure that Blizzard was trying to avoid a mistake witnessed in Everquest with the release of the Gates of Discord expansion. The majority of the content was tuned with Planes of Power raid gear in mind, which made it nearly unplayable by people in casual, non raiding guilds. It's since been made public that the seemingly overpowered mobs in the expansion were the fault of a development error (they were tuned with an increased level cap in mind which never made it into the final release etc).
The point being, had the Burning Crusade released and been tuned with not only an increased level cap in mind, but also with overland mobs requiring raid drops to defeat I'm sure Blizzard feared losing their casual player-base which you'd noted makes up the vastly larger percentage of the population.
Having raids be a part of the game isn't necessarily a bad thing itself per se, only it's overall effects on other aspects of the game that have nothing to do with raiding. Those include things such as:
A) Yes indeed, all pre-BC raid content was made obsolete, and only because of the simple fact that all BC items and content is tuned with BC raid drops in mind. As a result, even small group instances were also rendered useless since green solo drops in BC are vastly better than blues obtained in earlier levels - greatly disrupting the previously established gear progression.
B) Even before BC, raid drops created a vast imbalance in the Battlegrounds - player skill was pushed back to a secondary condition for success more often than not.
The only thing that will keep Azeroth and the Outlands viable as content in the game once the next expansion is released (beyond being necessary to level a character high enough to see the new content) will be a complete revamp of how raid-obtained items fit into the existing gear progression. In other words, raid items should only have such high benefits while in a raid zone, just as Arena epics should only grant their higher benefits in the Arena.
The system is already in place - it's the same as having requirements to gain a set bonus, or even class restrictions on items. That way, hardcore raiding guilds can still obtain powerful raid loot to progress to harder zones but it won't upset the overall balance and viability of the rest of the game's content.
Additional issues with raids in WoW and a suggestion
The OP made an important point and supported it with a good argument: Raid content in WoW represents a lot of time and effort spent on a small proportion of the player base. I think there are other reasons why the way raids and instances are implemented in WoW hurt the game which I would like to add to the issues the OP raised.
I am not a WoW hater. I played very frequently, becoming obsessive at times, from the day it launched. WoW does many, many things right but I think it fails badly in the end game.
As many have pointed out time and time again, at the higher levels WoW is driven by gear. It doesn't have to be played this way (I never did and had a ball until I reached the level cap) but many people do and the game is built for it. The raid/instance structure in WoW is an integral part of the quest for better gear. This has several consequences that I think hurt the game.
First, and of lesser importance, acquiring gear from raids/instances as they are currently structured involves running the same instance over and over and over again. Yes, it's fun when you win and fun when you get the drop you really want, but does anyone really enjoy doing the same instance tens or maybe hundreds of times? It's not called a "grind" for nothing. It hurts a game when the main thrust of the end game content is fundamentally tedious. It doesn't have to be this way.
Second, and of much greater importance I think, is that the overwhelming emphasis on acquisition of better gear and the tedious repetitiveness of the process necessary to get it brings out and rewards greed. Intra-group fights and arguments over who should get a drop are common in WoW and more often than not, they're ugly. When I went back to playing other MMOs last spring I was surprised by the extent and vehemence of WoW hatred out there. One of the most commonly voiced reasons given for player's disgust with WoW is the incessant and unrelenting greed displayed in the game. The guild I was in in WoW had a member who would always go out of his way to help other members of the guild at any level. On one of the rare occasions when I participated in a guild group in an instance I was disappointed to see this individual grabbing every drop he could use and petulantly insisting that he deserved it more when questioned about his looting behavior. This was a mature adult and one of the most selfless people in the guild yet when placed in the gear-grind instance environment nothing else mattered other than "gimmie, gimmie, gimmie". The instance/raid gear grind thrives on greed, rewards it, and hence encourages players to display it.
A final and invidious problem with the way WoW has implemented raids stems from all of the other things that WoW has done right. Because WoW has been immensely successful, it serves as the model and/or standard against which every new MMO is measured. Many MMOs will mimic what WoW has done and try to tweak it to make it better (much as WoW refined and improved on the MMOs that came before it). This may well result in a continuation of the WoW approach involving a fundamentally gear based game built on a WoW's style of instance/raid grinding.
I would like to make a suggestion for a different approach to instances and raids. One of the initial motivations behind implementing group and raid based instances in MMOs was that it would force people to play together. You can't do the instances unless you group and you are rewarded with the best gear for doing so. Why should playing solo or playing in a group be something that is dictated by game design? In the early days of MMOs maybe it was thought that no one would play together if they weren't forced to do so but it has long become clear that there are some players who much prefer to solo most of the time and others who much prefer to group most of the time. Why can't a game allow both groups to play the game the way they enjoy it without differentially punishing/rewarding one group or the other?
How can this be accomplished? Build scalable instances (WoW is already doing this) so that every instance can be played solo, 5-person, 10-person, whatever but, and this is the critical part, have the reward structure the same for solo players and groups. Obviously there has to be more drops for groups because there are more people but the quality of the loot should be the same no matter whether you play alone or with others. In other words, you can get the mega sword with a probablity of X whether you enter the instance alone or in a group. What I'm suggesting is that solo versus group play be a choice the player makes purely for purposes of personal enjoyment rather than a choice that is forced on the player by the game's design.
Both Akalock and Aelryn make some interesting points. I don't mind the raiding parts...I would love to see Mount Hyjal at some point just simply because of the context of the instance (oh and the jewelcrafting patterns). That is going to take a lot of work to get to it, something I have committed to in my guild. The problem is getting 24 other like minded people to make that exact same commitment at the exact same times as you. It is better then 40 people.
In the 5-mans it is frustrating with the drop rates. I have long hoped that the items for a specific class drop for those classes in that run. Nothing is more infuriating then running an instance and every drop is for a class not there and no one can use. I ran Shadow Labs and every time the Lifebloom totem would drop...no druid. To me there should be some way to amend that. We run into the same issue with KZ. Item drops and no one can truly use...oh well next week.
One aspect of the smaller groups is that you cannot "hide" as well. In a 25-man group yes you have more help, whether it be healing, dps or tanking, but you also can hide better - if you afk a min and don't let people know the raid leader may not catch it....if you try to do that in a 5-man you'll definitely be noticed.
I don't think the 25-mans are that bad a group - I think it is a nice compromise from the old 40 mans. I would like that if they scaled the instance having 5, 10, and 25 man versions....they are doing that with 5 and 25 versions of Sunwell coming in 2.4. It will be interesting to see how that works.
There is a way for those who cannot or do not want to join a raiding guild and that is pvp - you can do quite well for gear in there and a lot of my guildies have a couple pieces.
I loved the raiding in WoW, probably the best thing in the game for me but I'm not a casual gamer... I think Blizzard really messed with the balance between Casual content and Raiding Content in TBC, Adding new areas and new levels is good stuff for your casual and solo players but for we raiders it sucked, everything we worked for in the last few years became pointless, because of that I will never return to WoW because I would not be able to raid anymore, my char will still be lvl60 and only have the T1&2 armor sets, so getting myself into a guild and being selected as one of the 25 raiders would be near impossible... Thats just my experience of it, I think Blizzard really need to think about how they do things, I think they got away lightly with the TBC, they may not be so lucky with the next one.
Having raids be a part of the game isn't necessarily a bad thing itself per se, only it's overall effects on other aspects of the game that have nothing to do with raiding.
Sardu, that hits my point square on the head. It's not that raiding is bad. It's that it causes the problems which I outline in a player community with a significant portion of the players who don't care about raiding (the majority of them, in WoW's case).
Also, it's important to note that I'm not suggesting that WoW dramatically revamp the game structure. I think that ship has sailed. Redoing it all now would be a tremendous undertaking on the same scale as the NGE and it would upset the established playerbase. It might be okay if they changed their focus a bit moving forward, but going back and revamping the raid progression is kind of out of the question in terms of utility, time, and money.
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I will never return to WoW because I would not be able to raid anymore, my char will still be lvl60 and only have the T1&2 armor sets, so getting myself into a guild and being selected as one of the 25 raiders would be near impossible.
Xebek, that's a key point as well. If there weren't the whole MUDflation problem and progression from content to expansion was linear and aimed at WoW's more casual playerbase, you could just jump back in where you were with a few friends and continue on the story progression, taking your 5-man team through Naxrammas and then into BC with the gear obtained there. There would be no need to keep up with a guild. Just find a few friends or some pick-up groups and jump back into the storyline.
I'm reposting a comment I got at the blog, because I think it's important to the discussion:
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From Heartless: "Sorry to be a party pooper, but your numbers are way off. WoWJutsu only tracks the NA/EU Armory, so comparing the number of players on Jutsu to the 9.3 worldwide total is wrong.
Last I’ve heard, the NA/EU market was about 4 million strong, but at the same time, concurrency numbers have recently dipped below pre-TBC levels for the first time since TBC’s launch.
Also, Jutsu counts every single person in the guild as a “raid participant”, whether they have a piece of raid loot or not. So, the number of raiders can actually be decreased even further from your 600k figure.
For example, according to Jutsu my guild has tackled Kara and Gruul, but I have nothing to do with that success. I haven’t touched either, but I still count towards the “guild member” count, or that is my understanding of the website.
I think the better approach here is to compare the results of Jutsu with PARCs numbers from a while ago that estimated only 2% or so of the NA playerbaes were ever actually IN a raiding zone.
Just using some basic numbers, 600k out of 4mil is almost 7% of the user base enjoying upper tier raid content. A much improved figure. However, the big improvement comes in the form of the lower tier raiding environment where 50% of the playerbase seems to be participating.
What that tells me is that Blizzard has done something to bring “raid” content to more players, since it is very evident that many more players are enjoying the TBC raid content.
The debate over end game raids will always go on, but to me the war is won when Blizzard provides step-up content to get core players there. If players are given a path that is achievable, and then CHOOSE NOT TO participate, we can draw some conclusions about the validity of the end game raids.
NOTE: I hate raids and do not participate in them. I did at one point in my DAoC years, but only once have I hit a raid zone in WoW and it was a pick up raid to AQ 20."
And here's my response to that:
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Cameron: "I was actually waiting for someone to call me on those numbers, Heartless. You’re right. Cody Bye told me the same thing on AIM yesterday.
However, I don’t believe it weakens any of my main points considerably. Even if we’re dealing with a population of 4 million instead of 9.3, the numbers still indicate a largely casual playerbase and all of my main points still hold. There are still six whole zones designed for only 7% of players to access.
Also, as you mentioned, that 600k figure is probably inflated (for two reasons, actually). One, WowJutsu counts players who are in a raiding guild whether they’ve actually raided or not, and two, (as Cody mentioned) it probably counts alts in those guilds as well. We actually have no idea how many players that 600k figure might account for. The high-end raiding population could very easily be half that, or even less.
You mention that about 50% of the player base participates in the lowest tier of raiding as an argument in favor of raids in WoW, but instead I think it’s telling how sharply those numbers drop off. With Kara at 99% and Gruul at 71%, the next highest percentage after those is Serpentshrine with about 34% of guilds having beaten it.
You mention that this is a way for Blizzard to “bring players into raid content,” but I’m asking why they should be trying that at all given their clearly casual community. Sure, people raid Gruul and Kara– because there’s nothing else to do. But the vast majority of them get a taste of raiding there and don’t move on to harder raids.
Your claim would make more sense if there was a smoother progression through the raid instances, but there isn’t. There’s a sharp drop-off where most players say, “Nah, I don’t think I want to get into that.” And six cool instances are wasted on 90% of players (even with the modified numbers).
My article has two main complaints about raiding in WoW: It’s a lot of time spent on development for a significant minority of the population, and it causes the need for MUDflation which invalidates established content when expansions come out. I think that even with the modified numbers, both of those points still hold, and that raiding does more harm in WoW than it helps the game, on the whole."
I think the general population's mentality is this - at least at 70. Get to 70 and get attuned for Karazhan and see if I can get a couple epics. Maybe I get into a guild that tries Gruul's but do I really want to devote the time and energy necessary to get to SSC, The Eye and beyond? Also if they don't like it then they can go pvp and earn honor and get gear that way or create another alt and enjoy that aspect of the game.
I kind of fall into that category. I am in a guild that farms KZ regular, has made forays into Zul'Aman and is working on Gruul. We'll hopefully see some SSC by the end of this month if not in January once the holidays are over and things calm down.
I would love to see these instances but I have the mentality my friend did. He did what was necessary to get into the high level raiding guilds, got attuned for Black Temple and joined the highest raiding guild on Draenor and saw Mount Hyjal and Black Temple. He enjoyed it but all of a sudden the 5 days of 6 hours/night raiding and keeping yourself "flasked" and the research and study for these instances didn't match with his interest. While I would not go that route I have the mentality that I would love to see those same instances but I am not going to complain if I don't nor sell my soul to get there.
I will admit the MUDflation coming with WotLK does temper some of my enthusiasm. So if we make it to BT and Hyjal by WotLK great, if not oh well at least I saw some of the content.
I will honestly say I do like the fact that the attunements are being removed - it gives those "hardcore" raiders the challenge to get into those instances but when the bulk of those move on past those it allows those of us who raid but not at that level to still experience the content. So while the attunement has been removed I have no misgivings about thinking I am ready to walk into those instances. I figure the attunements for BT and Hyjal will be removed soon as well - maybe with the Sunwell in 2.4? - so people can at least see them....I would have to be out of my mind to think I would be even remotely ready.
Sorden's false assumption in this article is that he assumes that raid instances take a significant amount of developer time. Naxxramas was an experiment to them: something they said they only did only so they could slap together something better for BC, yet guilds spent months in Naxx.
There is also the problem that a lot of the "spine" of a server community depends on the hardcore raiding player base. Although some people love them and some people love to hate them, you hardcore gamers are generally the ones that also have the time and patience to form smaller groups and maintain expansive friends lists, while "always being there" for their friends. Nothing will break your spirit more than coming online with none of your friends on and if you can only spare a couple hours a day at any time, there is always "that guy" that is always online and will send you a tell when you log on. . .
If a developer does not do the pathetic amount of work required to build a raid instance for hundreds of thousands of players to bash their head against for months, its bad business sense on a micro level and it also very near-sighted.
Note the numbers Sorden shows are only current. Blizzard will continue to do what they have been. When MC was released, only about 2% of the player base had finished it. When Ahn Qiraj was around, a considerably larger number of players had finished MC while 2% had finished Ahn Qiraj. This is because casual gamers (or gamer-handicapped) will exhaust the same content as the hardcore, only a little later, so Blizzard catches both at once.
As for those that don't like raiding, PvP is just as easy to implement
Sorden's false assumption in this article is that he assumes that raid instances take a significant amount of developer time. Naxxramas was an experiment to them: something they said they only did only so they could slap together something better for BC, yet guilds spent months in Naxx.
Raid instances take just as much time to design and develop as any other instance. Why wouldn't they? They still require art assets, event planning, careful attention to itemization, and balancing and tuning for a large group of people. I would think it might even take more time to make a raid instance than a five-man giving the difficulty of balancing it for all the different class make-ups that might show up (which is exponentially larger than the number of class combinations that might show up in a five-man). There's a limited amount of resources in terms of both time and money when creating an expansion-- each raid zone they make means they've chosen not to make a 5-man or solo zone.
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There is also the problem that a lot of the "spine" of a server community depends on the hardcore raiding player base. Although some people love them and some people love to hate them, you hardcore gamers are generally the ones that also have the time and patience to form smaller groups and maintain expansive friends lists, while "always being there" for their friends. Nothing will break your spirit more than coming online with none of your friends on and if you can only spare a couple hours a day at any time, there is always "that guy" that is always online and will send you a tell when you log on. . .
I've heard that argument before, and I'm not entirely convinced of its validity. Maintaining expansive friends lists, being online a lot, and giving people lots of help is something that comes from a person's personal playstyle-- not the fact that they raid. There are plenty of nice players in raiding guilds who are like that, and there are plenty of players who aren't. Similarly, there are players who get really involved in the community and do that kind of stuff without ever touching a raid. Plenty of non-raiders hang out online a lot, whether leveling alts, working on tradekskills, or just chatting with friends. Hardcore gamers don't always equal raiders.
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When MC was released, only about 2% of the player base had finished it. When Ahn Qiraj was around, a considerably larger number of players had finished MC while 2% had finished Ahn Qiraj. This is because casual gamers (or gamer-handicapped) will exhaust the same content as the hardcore, only a little later, so Blizzard catches both at once.
That's the ideal situation-- When new content comes out, older content gets easier because players become more powerful, so more casual people can "catch up" on the old content and see what they've missed. Unfortunately, MUDflation removes the incentive to do this. If there are literally no upgrades in an instance, it's tough to convince a large group of players to go complete it, no matter how cool it is. That's why MC->AQ worked-- AQ didn't release a bunch of gear that was way easier to get than stuff in MC and replace everything there. But the Burning Crusade gave out a whole new class of easily obtainable greens that were better than anything currently out there. There was no reason to do the hard instances anymore from the original game.
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As for those that don't like raiding, PvP is just as easy to implement
The two chief complaints I've heard about PvP in WoW are the balance issues caused by players upset that people with time to raid have far better gear and are able to easily win against under-geared players, and (later on) raiders complaining about the "easy epics" or "welfare epics" that are given away in PvP. I didn't touch on PvP at all in the article because that could be a whole article unto itself, but raiding contributes plenty of complicated issues to consider when developing PvP content as well.
Op/Ed: How Raiding Hurts WoW More Than It Helps
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