Editorial - 10/25 Man Raids

[Messiah]

With all the recent information coming out about the Wrath of the Lich King (WotLK) expansion there has been many topics to discuss. The current hot topic being discussed is the change to raiding coming in the expansion. Blizzard has seen how popular the 10 main raid content has been that was introduced in the Burning Crusade and is reacting to it. Karazhan is hands down the busiest raid instance that Blizzard has ever created post expansion. More players have seen it that any other Burning Crusade Raid.

Due to this popularity and in an effort to have casual raider be able to see more content Blizzard has stated that in WotLK all raids will be 10 man and 25 man capable. What does this mean to the average player and the raider? Byron "Messiah" Mudry looks into this in this weeks Editorial - 10/25 Man Raids.

[Mikes]

I think this is a great idea, allowing the smaller guilds to see more content and allowing the larger guilds to get their teeth into things more quickly.

Right now, TTH is doing well in Kara, however when we finish in Kara we're going to have to keep running it mroe often to make sure we can get another 15 people at least geared ready for the next step. While we're a tight knit group, this could easily lead to some players leaving the guild for quicker progression, and if it happens to us it's sure as hell going to happen to other guilds out there.

The mroe I hear the mroe I cna't wait for WotLK!

[Yakb0]

Originally Posted by Mikes

Right now, TTH is doing well in Kara, however when we finish in Kara we're going to have to keep running it mroe often to make sure we can get another 15 people at least geared ready for the next step.

With the new sunwell badge gear, I think the more advanced players will be running Kara for badges, and all the drops can go to the newer players. Plus, with arena and crafted items, you can gear yourself up to run ZA with little or no Kara gear.

[Miralyn]

I agree wholeheartedly Messiah. I think this is truly some of the best news for the game in its entire run. The largest complaint I have heard is that Arthas will be a boss possible by 10-man and to some lorefiends that's akin to sacrilege. But to me it is not a huge deal.

Pre-TBC it was the 40-man raids. Prior to TBC's release I had 6 toons at 60 but their gear was pitiful except for my raiding toon, my warlock. Upon hitting HFP on my non-raiding 60s those toons got the massive improvements that the first quests gave and it helped them very much.

Fast forward now and I have 4 toons well-geared from KZ and it is eventually one of my goals to have all 8 non-raid toons be geared from KZ. Of course my mage and priest with their crafted stuff are ahead of the curve but the fact that most of my toons will be well-geared for WotLK is nice because it does not mean I will be relying on gear from the first couple quests. I think this is where KZ is nice and that success is why they are making the 10-mans feasible throughout endgame raiding.

One last note - I like the idea of 10 and 25 mans throughout endgame raiding that are not tied together. One of the "choke" points in endgame raiding, as Mikes aluded to, is the jump from KZ's 10-man to Gruuls' 25-man requirements. I know of several guilds who fell apart because of this and numerous others who felt that strain but got through it. Part of it was due to the fact that some people just wanted to farm KZ each week and get badge gear.

So I think this is a win-win for everyone - challenging to the "hardcore" and "possible" for the casual players.

[jeffo20]

I agree with all so far. One thing I do hope for, though, is that at least some of the new raids, level-wise, are set so that a group that [i]hasn't /I] made it through the current 25-man content can get in there and make progress. It won't be a help to most people if you have to be Sunwell-geared to get into the first of the Lich King 10 mans raids.

[Yakb0]

Originally Posted by jeffo20

I agree with all so far. One thing I do hope for, though, is that at least some of the new raids, level-wise, are set so that a group that [i]hasn't /I] made it through the current 25-man content can get in there and make progress. It won't be a help to most people if you have to be Sunwell-geared to get into the first of the Lich King 10 mans raids.

it didn't matter for BC raids if you started out with a full set of T3, or hadn't even started playing before the expansion.


Back to the topic..I hadn't considered what this would do to the lower rung of 25 man raiding guilds. I think they'll continue (because the casual raiding guilds are together for the people in the guild, not bleeding edge progression), but it's going to be very hard to form a new one; as the pool of players disapointed in their guilds 10 man progress won't exist anymore (since there'll be lots of new 10 man content to complete)

I think the removal of attunement is a major development. It's going to be interesting to see how they balance the bosses, or if they accept that people will be going into raids to pick off the easiest boss, when they don't have a chance of finishing the raid (look at all the guilds who've are doing T6 content after bypassing KT)

[Miralyn]

Jeffo - the gear you have now will be obsolete by the time you get to 80. My warlock had full tier 1 from Molten Core and replaced it completely upon dinging 70. While I have not heard what the "jump" in stats will be I am sure that what we are wearing now will be long gone by the time we hit 80. So those of you who are worried that you will "not be able to compete" with the top guilds on your server, don't worry, while they may progress to 80 faster then you due to the higher gear they have, at 80 they'll have to run the new versions of Shadow Labs, Shattered Halls, and the like just as you will.

I think the new raiding configuration will help the "mid-level" guilds not lose as many people. I like 25-man raiding but truly enjoy the 10-mans and look forward to trying both types of raiding. I think having both available will be good for the game and not cause this "sorry you guys aren't beating a new boss a week, I'm gone" mentality that has persisted.

[Pus]

The addition of 10-man versions of each raid could actually bolster the casual 25-man guilds. The biggest problem in moving from Kara to the Gruul's and Mag for casual raid guilds is recruiting and gearing enough players to attempt them while keeping the better geared players satisfied with running Kara. Many times key raiders will leave if they feel progression is going too slow (oftentimes worried that "too slow" will lead to "never") and the guild is back to square one.

With the change those same guilds can recruit intially for multiple 10-man teams. More advanced raiders will go on to the higher 10-man raids lessening the chance that they will leave the guild. Eventually the guild may have enough geared players that can be online at a given time to attempt 25-man content.

[Miralyn]

I agree with what Pus says wholeheartedly. We had issues in my last guild transitioning from KZ to Gruul's as people either got impatient and left to go to more "established" guilds or were content with running KZ each week for their 22 badges. I think this idea will really help out a lot - you can have your 25-man raids as I do in my current guild but if you want to grab 10 people and try it on the 10-man version it is not a big deal. Kudos to Blizzard on this.

[jeffo20]

Originally Posted by Miralyn

Jeffo - the gear you have now will be obsolete by the time you get to 80. ....While I have not heard what the "jump" in stats will be I am sure that what we are wearing now will be long gone by the time we hit 80.

Heh heh, let's face it, I'm hoping that the gear that I've got now will be replaced long before Lich King comes out!

I think I merely failed to communicate my concern which, upon further review, is of no actual concern at all.