Editorial - Welfare Epics: Does the Term Still Apply?
In the Beginning... Blizzard created Epic items, and life was good. Well, for raiders anyway. You see, in the beginning of the World of Warcraft, there were very few epic items outside of raids. Sure, they existed, but if you wanted epics, you needed to raid. Not the nambie pambie 10 man, or even 25 man raids of today, we are talking about epic 40 man raids. Raids that required huge amounts of coordination, teamwork and skill. The raids of today, especially the 10 mans, do not require the same level of coordination as the old 40 man raids, they still require player skill though.
Time went by though, more an more players got into epic gear, but even more were locked out of epics due to many reasons. Blizzard did several things to address this, they added 20 man raids, epic reputation and turn in rewards, and PvP epic items.
This brings me to the topic of today's editorial. From the time they were introduced, PvP epics inherited the term "Welfare Epics". At the time, they were called this for several reasons, but is the term still valid today?
I agree with you, the term definitely still applies. To get the best pvp gear, you should be required to actually do well in pvp, the fact that it takes 4 weeks of losing every game to farm the arena points to buy the season 3 hunter axe, is just silly. Doesn't mean I won't enjoy it...
But I have also come across another meaning of the term welfare epics. It still is in reference to the way they are obtained, though it is not blizzard controlled, like with the pvp epics. It still has a negative conotation toward the person recieving them. People who are viewed as less skilled in one guild moving to another guild with much further progression, where they are basically handed epics on their first runs through raids. I've heard people in my guild refer to one person by stating that they have no skill and the only reason they are raiding BT is because they were given welfare epics when they left our guild at the right time. But they just sound bitter to me.
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"I heard about it on the interblag."
I agree about the definition as it being not really a whole lot of work to get the item. Yes you can PVP your rear end off for a week but why when basically by showing up (granted it will take longer) you can get it? A guy I know who pvps a LOT suggested a good idea for tokens - make it where you only get them if you win, but it takes less tokens to get items (maybe 12 instead of 20, 24 instead of 40).
I would take pride in obtaining something that way. For example I worked my professions as well asking my friends for Spellfire cooldowns to make the Spellfire and Spellstrike sets which I completed the other day. I farmed the primals with the mote extractor and had my alchemists xmute them to fire. So I finally get the Spellstrike Pants made by my friend and build the Spellstrike Gloves to complete both sets. Two friends of mine need to kill Gurok and free Corki the third time, which I needed to do as well. I meet up, summon Gurok let the tank get aggro and promptly POM/Arcane Power Pyroblast him for 4611!! Man did that feel good. Now imagine if I had bought all the mats at the AH and done it the easy way....long story short you should get a feeling of satisfaction getting an item. I would hate to have had an item handed to me because no one else needed it and the instance was on farm.
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The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to - Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
I do agree with you also. The PvP gear is very good, but compaired to the stuff that comes out of some of the raiding dungons, the PvP rewards are not even close.
But the fact of the matter is that they are still epics. And Farming honor points is probably my least favorite thing to do. I would much rather run these dungons to get my gear then do endless AV battles. There is nothing worse then getting into a BG rotation with a group that does not work together at all! And when this happens I can only handle maybe two or three at the max before I get frusterated and stop doing BGs for the day.
But the fact of the matter is that some people do not have the time that needs to be dedicated to running these dungons. I am personally not able to dedicate 2-4 hours running dungon raids. For that reason, I PvP to get my honor and get my epics.
I do get tired however, of getting flammed on the WoW boards because I only have my "wellfare" set and i don't know what I am talking about. I post very rarely on WoW's site because of this.
The bottom line is that epic gear is epic gear. And I am glad that wow has made it possible for everyone to have an outlet to some creditable gear.
I have read alot of what messiah has written and he has been dead on, on many issues in wow, but this is just plain nuts. When blizzard introduced resiliance it changed pvp. Without "welfare epics" it would be impossible for new characters to compete in pvp or arena. Until a new character gets the gear, I can 2 or 3 shot clothies. Even if they are great players. Its not skill at this point its gear.
They still have to spend the time grinding gear, but to get the really good stuff they must do arena (which they earn). I am decked in season 1 "welfare's" and am teamed with another MS warrior on my 3v3 team. His gear progression is farther along and he has the season 2, 2 hand sword. His DPS output is often 20% better than mine. Skill only? Maybe, probably not.
The baseline BG gear narrows the gap so a really good player can beat an average player with much better gear. This helps prevent the rich getting richer problem in wow. How would you like to fight any toon decked in season 3 with blues and greens. Well getting pwned in a BG is worth it if your death means you can get some gear to make this gap closer and allow your skill to play a larger role than your gear the next time you face off.
The rich keep getting richer, elimination of the "welfare system" again makes the gear progression unfeasible for new players. An average arena player gets enough points to upgrade 3 or 4 pieces of gear in a season. If the player has been playing for 3 season he has pretty decent gear. A great player who has been 70 for 5 or 6 months has an arena ranking of nothing gets barely any points, his gear is sadly lacking. He will never have the oppurtunity to compete with the top teams because he can't get by the average player who's gear tips the scale.
If this game is about years of service please let me off now. Sorry about the rant, but a bad player in epics is still a bad player. By the way first time poster long 6 month reader.
I'm not convinced gear from raiding is awarded any more on merit than gear from PvP. You can be a mediocre player decked out in Kara epics just by virtue of the 9 good players who ran with you for weeks. I don't see an issue here.
If this game is about years of service please let me off now. Sorry about the rant, but a bad player in epics is still a bad player. By the way first time poster long 6 month reader.
Nice first post Khairn. You bring up some good points about resiliance. I think the thing that gets lost here, that you and Zeep both allude to, is that PVP is a completely seperate aspect of the game than PVE and yet people try to combine them when making gear arguements.
The reality is that if I want to get to level 70 and exclusively PVP, I should be able to get gear comparable to what PVE players are bringing into BGs and arenas. Part of the problem as I see it, is that there isn't a huge variance between PVP and PVE gear. Resliance was probably added to make things a little more PVP tilted but not enough. If I'm of comparable skill but decked out in the best PVP gear, I should beat the person in the best PVE gear. And that person should out DPS/heal me in PVE.
The heart of the problem is the whole AFK issue. I can play my butt off in BGs to earn my gear and some bum hiding in the cave is still making progress towards getting the same gear. I like that arena gear is better than BG gear because it is earned but I'd like to see some difference in the BG stuff also.
In a nutshell, I basically went into the BGs and got the S1 gear to be able to play heroics and go into Kara and raid effectively. I think PVP epics are just another path to the ultimate goal of being able to fight and survive the bigger raiding dungeons. It gives you a leg up where you didn't have one before. IMO you get the PVP gear so you can go into the heroics and Kara, which effectively opens the door for even better gear so you can go on and do Gruul's, ZA, BT, Mt Hyjals, etc, etc. One leads to the next which leads to the next. If you are into PVP alone then you need that S1 BG gear to get you started doing arena and becoming competitive there. The "welfare" epics are the starting point in a progression of events.
IMO I needed that PVP armor so I could progress further with regards to raiding. Now that I have the S1 PVP gear from the BGs I can actually be an help rather than my hinderance to my guild in Kara. You can't raid effectively if you are dying all the time. Fact is, the standard blue gear you get in the regular instances and questlines just doesn't cut it for raiding or even going into Heroics so unless you step up and PVP to get the "welfare" epics you are shut out from effectively raiding and the badge gear.
So basically it's PVP and get the "welfare" epics or go into instances over and over again and hope that "someday" you will get gear that doesn't even compare to what's offered in PVP. What would you do?
In my guild it only took a few runs into heroics and a standstill at Moroes to convince everyone what to do. Everyone in the guild started doing PVP and getting geared up. IMO PVP isn't an option it's part of the logical progression of raiding. I don't think Blizzard meant to do this but that's how it's worked out.
Sure you can craft items but what if you aren't a crafter? Sure you can grind away for rep but often the rep items aren't all that good. My PVP healing ring quickly replaced the ring I received for being revered with Honor Hold. You can make a ton of gold farming and selling stuff in the AH but there isn't anything to BUY in the AH at the higher levels (which is a good thing IMO) so you have limited options if you want to progress at end game.
I agree with Messiah that the term "welfare" is accurate because anyone can go into a BG and slog through long enough to get the honor and marks to attain the gear without doing much. Unfortunately the person who puts out the least effort gets about the same honor and marks as those who put their all into it. This can be said for raiding as well but IMO but it's not nearly as prevalent. Back in the days of 40 mans slackers were much more prevalent but with 25 man and 10 mans its much more vital that everyone know what they are doing and each person carry their own weight. Yes, there are those who get "carried thru" but I don't think it's nearly the same as in PVP BGs.
It is a shame that there are those who give PVP a bad name and go in just to put the time in and get the gear and then get out. These are the guys who hide out in the caves or the buildings and hope the battle ends as quickly as possible so they can get their mark and get out. When I go in to a battle I put my all in regardless of whether we win or lose but that's not case with many people. The AFK system does help and hopefully Blizzard will continue to fine tune this.
I will say that if you play PVP WELL you will become a better, more effective player. To be good at PVP you need to have react quickly and skillfully and constantly be evaluating what it is you do. These are things that help a lot and easily translate to raiding. One reason I do PVP is to help me raid better. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Now that I have a good set of BG epics I can both raid and do arena effectively and I enjoy doing both both PVP and PVE.
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"Not all those who wander are lost"
A guy I know who pvps a LOT suggested a good idea for tokens - make it where you only get them if you win, but it takes less tokens to get items (maybe 12 instead of 20, 24 instead of 40).
I don't know if you play Alliance or Horde in PVP but fact is, if you play Alliance and institute a policy where you only get something if you win you'll get NOTHING 90% of the time. It'll effectively kill PVP.
In my battlegroup, Alliance is just awful in just about every BG besides AV and even then we win only about half the time. In the other BGs if you win 2 battles out of 10 it's a good day. I could go on and on about why this is but fact is, it is what it is. I know that I would get so frustrated and angry if I got nothing after spending hours in the BG I'd give it up.
So in effect you'd have the Horde in the BGs by themselves because if you make things too difficult to attain people give up trying to get it altogether. That's just human nature
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"Not all those who wander are lost"
"That simple fact is why I firmly believe the term welfare epic still applies. While winning requires great skill, you just don't need to win to get the gear. Until Blizzard changes that simple fact, I feel the term still fits. Like I said though, I aim the derogatory connotation directly at how the gear is gained, not the gear or at a good PvP player."
I feel that this is the elitist attitude that Blizzard is trying to get away from. I PVP my butt off to get my gear. I do battle ground after battle ground and think I am a pretty good pvp'er. I just started to do arenas and so far I am 0-11. Do I suck? Maybe, but I look up the stats of others after I lose and most of them have s2 and s3. So if I never earn any points because I can't beat players with better gear then me then I will never be able to compete. I don't know about you but I dont want to play day in and day out and not earn anything for it.
PVE epics are just as easily earned for 80% of the people out there. Lets face it, how many people in a raiding guild actually are part of the problem solving and how many just show up and mash buttons. Once you beat an encounter its the same thing over and over. In PVP it is always changing and one strat may not work against a different team. PVE is boring for me so I PVP. BTW, labels are stupid.
Editorial - Welfare Epics: Does the Term Still Apply?
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